Derry Chase, in BC, Canada, (official geographic category, West Coast Rainforest - and it really is wet) grows his apples under plastic shelters, and says that since the trees are never wet, he doesn't have to spray for scab. See his website: http://derrysorchardandnursery.ca/p6_shelters.html#shelters. I have never seen anybody else do this. Does anybody else have any experience? Derry says it is virtually standard procedure in Holland.

Washington State University has been doing some work on growing cherry trees in high tunnels. I think but don't quote me on this but Dr Carol Miles is leading this research at WSU. We also have a grower down here that growes all of his fruit under plastic, mainily small fruits but I also remember seeing peaches, cherries and plums. He uses bumble bees as pollinators.

Derry's site displays a small width continuous 6 mil plastic covering over dwarf trees. My concern with this method would be spore drift from the adjacent ground or litter. Venturia inaequalis may not normally move beyond 100 ft. but it may certainly float a few yards. A word of caution when building a covering without sidewalls, make it tight and strong. Any of us who have left our greenhouse sides up in some heavy winds need not be reminded. Finally, although it is great to see inventiveness that lessens the use of sprays, I sure hope the future of organic agriculture doesn't mean plastic wrapping everything we can get our hands on.

Re. spore drift: Derry says this system works, not by excluding the spores, but rather, since the leaves are never wet, the spores don't germinate. Re. mechanical strength: I had the exact same concern, but Derry says that with battens along the edges of the plastic it will weather even high winds. He rolls it up in the winter, and rolls it back down the following spring, and gets several years' use out of the plastic. I have similar concerns to Todd re. "wrapping everything in plastic", but rather think this is a not inappropriate use, and quite a different thing from wrapping things in Kling-wrap. Would you eschew the use of Parafilm for budding? How about baggies for fruit protection? Or my use of 6-mil plastic on the ground last Spring to warm the ground to permit my growing sweet potatoes in my Zone 5 climate? I am afraid I am not a very committed organicist. Actually, this might be a useful thread - the relationship of organic agriculture to the wider world. I want to grow my food with a minimum of toxic chemicals and in harmony with Nature rather than fighting Her. And I suspect I am not alone in this. But the exclusivity bred by the "organic certification" movement has sidelined, if not alienated, those of us who are more agnostic in our values.

Oh, I'm not THAT strict. I do own a greenhouse fully wrapped in the same 6 mil plastic, and use black electrical tape for bench grafting not raffia and beeswax. My reaction stems more from a yearning to find more wholesome answers than the TREND is dictating. That trend is toward petroleum products and I see pictures of these large scale strawberry fields and the like with miles and miles of plastic sheeting perfectly laid down with big diesel tractors, and um, that's CERTIFIED ORGANIC. I fear that when a widely practiced alternative, like plastic mulching for weed control, is seen as the nonspray alternative, the impetus to find another alternative (an alternative alternative?) evaporates. Perhaps mine is a more emotional argument though, one having to do with visions of picking apples with my mom in standard tree orchards long ago. If that is replaced with miles and miles of plastic tunnels I'll be sad. Regarding the Organic Certification "movement", you'll get no argument from me on the arbitrary and inconsistent mess that has become, but many in the organization are trying to do their best. I am certified but wouldn't dream of doing some of the stuff that is allowed by the body. I find being certified merely lets folks buying my stuff that I have met a low bar of purity, that's all. I'll apologize for having this discussion on what is surely the wrong forum, but I think there are alot of you out there that need an outlet for coming to terms with some of these debates. We are all poised with two notions: how to grow marketable fruit, and how to do it ethically and healthily. Just as central to the debate which includes whether or not to spray copper on your crops are things like carbon footprint, peak oil concerns, low inputs of shipped in materials, and yes, maybe even aesthetics. [Editor's Note: Well, yes... why not start a directed thread aimed square at the certification conundrum? You’ll see far more response to a topic if the post title matches the intent. Good Fruit Marketing is one possible category for this. Or this could inspire all sorts of intriguing commentary as a philosophical blog in its own right.]