The heart of holistic orcharding is all about building orchard health across the board. A core set of values around this guiding principle are posted at the Grow Organic Apples website. These in turn are what we ask network members who would like to be listed in the "community orchard search engine" to review and agree with to a reasonable degree. No attempt is being made here to establish stringent certification standards--'nuff folks do that already!--but rather to generate a self examination process how we each might do better. I will readily admit that the "apple diplomacy clause" is specifically about bringing growers into this circle who may not be outright organic but nevertheless are working towards a healthier agriculture in their community. Sometimes, encouragement and dialogue take us much further as a grower movement than exclusion, methinks. Short term allopathic choices are a far different thing than "steady as she goes" IPM. It's important to add here that potential customers should be told everything upfront by every community orchardist. Several recent members to the discussion forum have indicated (in their application comments) that they have suggestions as to the Holistic Core Values. Which would be absoultely great! This is the thread for such discussion. Please click that blue link to actually review the current version of HCV as posted on the Grow Organic Apples website.. your comments will be that much more pertinent if you understand the whole vision and not just react to a stand-alone aspect. Which is not unlike our work with the orchard ecosystem as a whole, eh?

Let's just say a guy wonders why no one has ever taken up the torch here. Our community (grizzled as we are!) should want to speak to principles of health in the orchard. Buds lie dormant yet... is it the same for you?

I just re-read the HCV essay and would encourage others to do the same. I have come away with two points to review. First, we presumably are all on board with a reduction in upsetting natural balances with uneccessary intrusion in the orchard. Even conventional orchardists don't want to waste any more money on sprays than we do. Just the same, I know far too many "organic" farmers who either with the use of fertilizers or pesticides are awkward and heavy handed in their approach. I believe the problem is that folks just don't spend the time either doing their homework, or god forbid, spend time in the orchard. My 7 year old is wise enough to show me that spending a half hour watching a grasshopper (and keeping one's mouth closed) can yield an awful lot of information. So farmers who can't or won't spend the time reach into a bag and powder their fields (heavily) without really understanding what on earth they are doing. I understand their frustration, orcharding is a pain in the neck sometimes, but my point stands. An OMRI approved substance is just as easily abused as any other. My second point addresses the holistic idea in the larger picture. Since we all perhaps are interested in a healthier world, I think we all need to encourage a kinder sensibility to the world as a whole. If we can only function as orchardists by subscribing to the same model as conventional business (ie the overuse of fuel and electricity) and the importation of processed fertilizers and pesticides, sustainability will be questionable. We need to also educate the public in the importance of this strategy. Localvore movements have been a move in the right direction. Organic Chilean apples are not. What I find disheartening is the customer who buys a very unlocal piece of fruit that is organic and possibly goo for their personal health, and also helps to reduce the health of the planet. Same goes for making a healthy orchard at the expense of nature's orchards, eh? We try to encourage folks to buy our organic, locally grown plants, but the reaction we usually get- especially from organic farmers is that a tree that isn't fruiting yet won't make a lick of difference between organic or conventionally grown. (Organic standards allow for conventional plants to be purchased and planted and the offspring considered organic.) But what about the PRACTICES of the grower of those plants..aren't they doing damage to the ecosystems in which they are growing. Isn't it bad for the planet as a whole. I hope, in conclusion that we aren't all doing this all only for our personal health, but for the health of an entire world of creatures and for a philosophy that rises above ourselves.

Todd, I am in complete agreement with your observations. I, too, totally hate to spray. Being a minimalist, I usually lay down and wait for the feeling to go away. We can be swept away by the need to spray without documenting the facts through observation. The locally grown food movement is right on the mark. There is no reason to import food that can be grown and sourced locally for any reason (organic or otherwise). Local food is the most reasonable way of reducing our environmental footprint and it is at the heart of sustainability.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" Attr. Leonardo daVinci Mother Nature has a nearly unfathomably complex system that we, through grossly reductionist thinking, try to simplify down to a few key components that we can put in a box and manage. Our feeling is that we need to set up a situation where we can let nature take its course as much as possible in the orchard with as little off farm input as is possible. This is of course made more difficult with "our" having introduced all kinds of pests and diseases from all across the globe to a place where nature never intended them be (including the trees themselves!). We believe that it is too much to ask to expect huge yields and all perfect fruit, and the price we pay for expecting that is evidenced in the declining health of our environment and our bodies. What we have is clearly not a natural system. With the ideas of permaculture in mind we semi-jokingly refer to our orchard as an apple savannah (grassland dotted with trees) with our sheep doing as much mowing as possible, and us being as thoughtful as possible about everything that goes into the orchard and where it comes from. Science holds up all kinds of red herring answers to all of our problems that just seems to increase the speed of the downward spiral that we are in. In our society where we put so much value on having so much it is difficult to step back and say " Hey, I'm just not going to milk everything I can out of this piece of land, and have it all, right now." I am no saint and am as guilty as many of the excesses, but I keep reminding myself to simplify. There is no prescriptive method as to how any holistic/sustainable orchardist is going to grow. We just have to be careful of what we come to rely on.

We have read “Holistic Core Values” a couple of times, and we think the section has been well thought out, and beautifully written. And we totally agree with Todd’s and Steve’s sentiments, above. In Australia also, too many people consider “organic” to mean free of pesticide residues, rather than sustainable agriculture that is good for the planet. Perhaps one thing that could be added to the Core Values is something along the lines of “the need for us all to be inquisitive/observant/objective and willing to discuss ideas and so learn from one another”. It seems to us that more “trial and error” in our orchards, and more open and objective discussion about what we are seeing is the way to take this group to the next level. Some questions and answers are fine, but what we all need to be doing, is testing theories and attempting to solve problems in our orchards. And then to report back to the group with our findings, and to seek comments and suggestions. We ourselves have at times: - failed to try something new because we didn’t have the time or money to do the whole orchard (we should have at least done one row, or even one tree). - disregarded some things that were happening in our orchard because the observation didn’t fit with our pre-conceived ideas of what should be happening (it is easy to fall into the trap of seeing only what you want to see, hearing only what you want to hear). - been carried away with the nuances of a new concept, while overlooking more basic aspects such as weed competition and insufficient soil moisture (a bit like fiddling with the fine tuning knob while the TV is switched off). We think experience is the best teacher, and that you can learn as much from a negative result as from a positive one. And if we can all learn from one another’s experiences, we will progress a heck of a lot faster. So we all need to get out there and observe, record and discuss. No one person in this group has all the answers - by working together we can “advance the cause” so much further. We believe this forum has the potential to become an invaluable resource for us all.

I think Michelle and Chris are dead on the mark regarding orchardist testing. It is likely the greatest strength of the forum to exchange results of our ideas. I have commented before about the need for a grower powered system over an institution based one simply because there are so many more testing grounds, ideas and geographical nuances. Perhaps we should consider arranging a few test ideas to be implemented by several growers and compare results. We always set out to do scientific trials (winter is a great time to make long lists of fantastic plans), only to be overwhealmed with day to day operations. A group launched project, however might be enough pressure for us to implement testing. I would be happy to be involved in any such endeavor. If anyone is testing something they would like reciprocated, or has ideas for a testing model, we should all talk further. The discussion (on this site) should presumably appear on the link corresponding to each discipline under review. A system of sharing ideas and the work therein, although not a new idea, surely flies in the face of the new paradigm. In a world that is increasingly about the race to come up with answers only to have them sold and legally protected it would be nice to be traveling down an opposing path. How's helping one another for a Core Value?

 

[Editor's Note: Check out Grower Inspired Research to proceed with this nudge for coordinated research efforts within our network.]

I have no objection to your HCV, but personally I approach the subject as a wild blueberry grower. Mother Nature has already provided us with everything we need to get bountiful crops if we keep the fields weeded. True, the conventional growers can expand yields with chemicals but they are not really necessary. So with regard to tree fruits, I look for varieties that behave similarly to wild blueberries. So far I have found one apple and one peach, although the survival of the peach in this climate is still unproven. But I believe that more varieties are waiting to be discovered. Of course they will probably not be commercially profitable, at least until I am in my grave. But you can't have everything. So I don't need to evaluate the degree to which I might need sprays or other cultural techniques, although I can't resist the urge to prune the trees to make harvesting more pleasant.

What strikes me from my brief time studying growing is how there are two apparent methods for growing human disease free and low bug apples.  The controlled rows, concise pruning method,  extreme hygiene; picking  up droppings of leaves and fallen apples,  no bugs allowed maybe if you are deemed beneficial..etc and the "other" method.  Do we call it holistic?  The "other" meaning  wild plantings with tall grass, companion plants,  health controlled by the randomness of fungi, bacteria and larger beasty growth life/death cycle which are in turn controlled by the randomness of the weather.  Can entropy be controlled, harnessed ?  I think we see the effects on the environment when we try to control the entropy.  Are we capable of accepting no control?  Does nature allow for moderation?  I picture a bell distribution.  With full embrace of neither apple growing method leading to a strong percentage for disasterous results.

 Maybe one has to choose their path choosing either of the two different types of growing methodology rather than a central method of growing.  Can commercial growers survive with an entropy based growing method?  Perhaps holistic means observing and embracing the entropy, knowing when to to push, pull and let go..  I think that needs some special training.   To me this means good science.  Use of controls, repeats and good observation with recording of failures as well.  Recording what didn't work is as important in the scientific process when you are in unknown areas as knowing what works.

This just-introduced notion that the "holistic approach" is one based on entropy undermines what we're trying to accomplish and totally confuses the issues.

 

I have three sets of teachers in the tree world:

• The wild tree shows what undisturbed biology offers but also how disease can run amuck regardless in certain years when weather patterns favor pathogenic fungi and bacterial bloom.
• The controlled tree shows how our choice of medicines disturbs the requisite biological scene and can wreck biodiversity advantage as well unless the grower is extremely tuned into recovering from  spray compromise.  Such trees can be raised in IPM orchards as well as in certified organic operations.
• The holistic tree shows what health empasis and biological timing can do. The human role here is to steward tree immune function, emphasize fungal duff management, and nudge pest populations into balance by working with species requisites.

 

Research based upon replicated trials is good--I've been trying to get y'all to support such efforts by supporting this grower's network for years!--but don't think for a minute that there are only two ways to orchard. The Holistic Core Values reflect biology-based methods that build health.

I see your point and I mis-wrote in an effort to simplify that there are two methods only rather that there are two polar opposites for achieving the the same apple.  Brackets if you will.  There is a lot of gray area (the bell distribution) here to define holistic which lends itself towards the wild tree.  However I need more clarification on the end goal. What are we trying to accomplish around the apple tree?  Are we looking for minimal interaction?  Minimal spray of whatever be it sulfur or compost tea?  

As for based on entropy?  Given the vast amounts of molecular interactions I feel we have no choice but at this juncture to consider some form of entropy being in effect.  That being said I don't believe in entropy just that our point of view is too macro.  What argues against the entropy is that we have some evidence more than anecdotal that we can steer the tree in the direction we desire. 

The simple topic of apple thinning and the limited options available seems like the holy grail for the holistic approach.  Can an apple tree hollistically drop apples without external application of something by us.

I can't respond to anything except the final sentence, since the terminology and concepts are foreign to me.  Anyhow, my son and I discovered a tree---said to have sprung up spontaneously--- which bears nice crops without any inputs, and sheds the insect=damaged fruits long before harvest.  Don't know if you would call that thinning.

I think the frustration Dan feels is common to us all on occasion. Something to keep in mind is the arbitrary nature of it all. What brings us all together in a forum like this might be a bit more nuanced, a feeling or general attitutude rather than a set of club rules or criteria. One party will take issue with copper or sulfur sprays, another with products shipped in from India, another will deisel tractors. By having an exchange of ideas and data on strategies, we all get to pick and choose on what works. Yes, we can all discuss or even argue maturely in the philosphical realm (I sure enjoy it), but finding an answer we can all agree upon is as unlikely as agreeing on a favorite apple. (It does happen to be Ashmead's Kernel by the way).