I am getting into Surround season here and find myself wondering how helpful it is to tank mix with Surround. I am thinking of things like oil, Serenade, sulphur, etc. Last night I sprayed Surround on my peaches plums and apples with a tank mix of Saf-T-Side oil and Serenade. This mix I came up with mainly for the peaches and plums, since both Saf-T-Side and Serenade have some efficacy against brown rot. Now, if you think about what you are putting down, you will get some of your Serenade/sulphur/oil on the leaves fruit and bark, but a lot of it is just going to be sticking to the Surround itself. Won't that end up reducing the degree of coverage? Maybe it means I should have say doubled the concentration of the mix-ins? One thing that got me wondering about this is I was reading some study of pear psylla treatment which showed that oil and Surround both had efficacy against psylla by themselves, but when put together there was no improvement (and, the results more tracked the Surround results, as if the oil was doing nothing). In general this question holds throughout the period when the trees have Surround coverage -- even if you put a pure oil spray on top of Surround-covered trees, after the water dries it seems like a lot of the oil will be on the Surround particles, not the leaf and fruit surfaces. Scott

These four to six weeks from bloom to a month beyond petal fall bring a confluence of many pest challenges and disease potential. And thus the need to be spraying different things for different purposes. And thus the need for nuanced understanding of how what we spray works. The principle thing to understand about Surround effectiveness is that the clay particles need to "flake off" readily to deter crawling bugs like curculio... thus Surround should not be used with a sticker to gain rain fastness. The mechanism of oil as regards brown rot escapes me (I know you started another thread on brown rot strategies, Scott) unless it has to do with smothering the fungal spore. The biological chemistry encapsulated in Serenade most likely works in the “enzymatic stew” resulting when the leaf gets wet… and thus would be available even when seemingly coating the clay particle. Ditto for sulfur, whose primary contribution is to change leaf pH and thus hinder the development of the fungal hyphae of a disease-causing organism from penetrating leaf tissue. I try to straddle the “curculio window” with pure neem oil for disease prevention purpose. Any oil is going to stick the Surround to the leaf, and all the more if oil rates are high end. I know that the first week at petal fall I must build up a “kaolin base” to get enough whiteness on the fruitlets, leaves, and twig wood to deter curculio and first generation codling moth. That’s best done as 2 or 3 applications of Surround, depending on sprayer capability. Here’s the order of what I do in petal fall week: 1. Neem oil with a 5# rate of Surround to build a base matrix for the clay-to-come. This allows me to “sneak in” neem right after bloom when in the past I limited myself to sulfur following a definite wetting period. This tank mix also includes Entrust for European Apple Sawfly because its instar stage is very susceptible. And of course kelp as a megavitamin foliar. 2. That same day, maybe a few days later, Surround now goes on at the 25# rate. If I think the orchard is about to experience a major wetting event and ascospore maturity has had a week of ripening without release, I would include sulfur in this tank mix, knowing that the third Surround application will overcoat the sulfur grains and thus prolong activity by protecting from UV degradation. 3. That same day the Surround again at the 25# rate. I should now have sufficient “whiteness” to deter curculio on all but my trap trees. The next week I renew the Surround coverage. If we happen to have had a “mother of all rains” event, and thus all-out leaf washing, and thus the need to practically start over with the clay, I might do the “neem sneak” again to start. This is all so weather dependent and intuitive. But most years I probably just do the supplemental Surround, with sulfur as a card up my sleeve if necessary. Some growers might use Bt or granulosis now because codling egg hatch likely has begun… neither of these will be messed up by the clay coverage. The next week, if its been warm, I hope to end Surround, if curculio has had some very active twilight time with temps in the 70s. Trap tree options tie into this ability. I’m also likely beyond primary infection period for scab now as well, and thus would be done with sulfur. My summer spray schedule is basically all-herbal, including the whole plant medicine found in the oil of the neem tree. We’re talking about the artistry of what we each do here, based on observation and reasonable scientific speculation.

I think what the Saf-T-Side oil does is it smothers the spores. This product is a unique kind of oil, it is more like pudding in the container. Other light summer oils such as Stylet Oil do not have this property or the efficacy against brown rot. Do you think this oil could be acting like a sticker on the Surround? I am not using my sticker (Nufilm-17) in the tank with Surround since I know that is not a good thing, but it sounds like you are implying the oil is acting as a sticker. I was using neem years ago but I didn't find it working any better than my Stylet Oil, and sometimes worse. But that was not raw neem; I am going to get some raw neem soon and see how it does. You have a very good point about the Surround as a "holding tank" for the Serenade and sulphur, which each wetting event will re-activate. That is putting the Surround to extra advantage. I think it also may help with delivery of granulosis or spinosad - the particles of Surround on the insect could be a carrier of the virus. Scott

One avenue pursued at the USDA Applachian Fruit Research Station when Surround was being developed and trialled was to apply the kaolin with cottonseed oil... in hopes of greater effectiveness and rainfastness. This is what led to the firm conclusion that refined kaolin clay must not be stuck to the leaf and twig to do its job. Mutual application with oil takes away from Surround's ability to irritate the hell out of curculio... which is why I explored the idea of a base matrix to get pure neem oil on first, with subsequent applications of the clay "loosely applied" atop of the oil. We all need to keep thinking and exploring such dynamics.

Ah.. thanks. I had not been adding oil until this spring when someone mentioned they were adding oil. I wonder if the type of oil would have an effect -- cottonseed oil is a drying oil so it will produce a hardened film when it dries which would obviously not be good - you have just painted Surround onto your tree! Mineral oil is non-drying, so it would not be as bad as a drying oil; neem oil is also non-drying. I am going to stop adding any oil for now. Scott

Trying to add up all of Michael's advice I am seeing that Neem is applied 7 to 10 days AFTER petal fall as well as in the combination with Surround 5# rate at petal fall which is followed by 2 or 3 successive coats of Surround. Now, my question is, When you add Neem at 7 days after petal fall is that a problem for the surround that you are also adding around that time? What am I missing? I am using the Pure Neem Oil page from Organic Apple Grower web site and the Kaolin Strategy page and this discussion as my sources and trying to plot out the strategy. I don't use sulphur so at least that part of the equation can be left out. Thanks.

Consider everything that’s going on in your orchard at this time and be as flexible as the unknown weather-to-come. Some point – anywhere from 7 to 21 days after petal fall – the primary infection period for apple scab is going to end because all spores will have matured and been released by a rain occurring after 760 DD. Thus the need to support immune function of the system and thus the “relative timing” of my holistic spray combo of neem, liquid fish, and EM at petal fall and then again at 7 to 10 days after petal fall. Now the pests. Note the caveat that every orchard site experiences different degrees of pressure and that weather and population dynamics differ every year. This is why no recommendations can be formulaic per se. Here in the East we probably all face the same “petal fall triad” of European apple sawfly, plum curculio, and codling moth. Apple curculio, oriental fruit moth, and lesser appleworm will be weaving in as well at different orchard sites. Keep it straight in your brain how Surround works on these different insects. The mix of varieties also plays a role as the moment deemed to be “petal fall” will be called differently by an early blooming cultivar versus a late-blooming apple like Sweet Sixteen. Once again, we have to think for ourselves how spray needs and timing fit into the complexities of the season at hand. Surround only has impact on EAS if you begin the clay applications at pink. I have tremendous EAS and deal with it with Entrust at petal fall. And yes, mixed in with that holistic brew described above… and probably with that 5# of Surround to establish a “clay matrix” that sticks because of the oil content. Sometime in that week following likely comes 2 or 3 full-rate Surround sprays to achieve the flaky “outer coat” that works on crawling insects. I’m talking curculio now – really cool weather at this time might be a reason to delay until even the following week, warm twilight spells mean get right on it. A week to 10 days passes until that next holistic brew gets applied. Has it rained a lot? What about the temps? Are curcs in evidence, especially on trap trees? Are fruitlets big enough for curc to do its thing? When did moths come on the scene as told to you by pheromone trapping? When will moth eggs hatch as revealed by degree day tracking? Is the pressure heavy? Is a big rain predicted whereby you have a chance to get on the neem et al? Knowing you can renew the Surround, possibly 2 applications, right after that big rain? And then, what subsequent plan do you implement on those trap trees so you can close the curc window ASAP and thus not have to maintain clay for weeks and weeks on end? Keep in mind that neem is affecting insects too, especially moths. Some of us likely roll in a micronized sulfur spray into this “dance” during this time, especially if a mega-wetting event is anticipated following on the heels of a warm, dry spell. This would be tank-mixed with full-rate clay, knowing how both materials work in solution and with regard to UV protection. Others have high CM pressure and may be involved with granulosis or mating disruption -- that in itself changes the need for Surround as regards deterring egglaying by moths. All the time we want to minimize the need to be out there and completely cognizant of the impact our choices have on system health. I’m going to listen from here on in for how others see Surround working in their own individual orchard flow. And if you don’t use the refined kaolin clay at all, then start a new thread about the spray dynamics you face. All is fascinating!

I have decided to experiment with putting stylet oil in with Surround this spring, and so far I have not noticed much damage in spite of having the oil in. There are lots of curcs about and damage was registering before I started applying, so the Surround does appear to be doing its thing. Neem oil is non-drying so it is probably not a good thing to add to Surround. Along with stylet oil I am using Serenade with my Surround sprays this spring, it has a (weak) effect on many diseases and in particular fireblight, which has been a major headache the last several years. Scott